This kind of popped offs of Minds traditionally played out through diplomacy and propaganda is being played out online. My next guest has almost half a billion views for his provocative commentary online, making him hugely influential. Asam P streams live under the name Abby His analysis of the Israel Hamas War has taken a highly critical stance towards Israel and Western media and he's been calling me out for my coverage because he only cares about Israeli citizens he does not care about Palestinians As human beings, that's why it's apples to oranges. It's like one side is a human, the other side is a barbaric monster child.

I Never said that. Obviously he says that he like nothing more than to come on to unsensored and call me a baboon in a suit to my face. Well here I Am a baboon uh and he can join me now I'm joined by Hassan Hassan Thank you very much to D for coming on. thank you for having me Piers Uh, it's very early here in Los Angeles California but I'm gonna try to do my very best to to not do my British accent while I'm here.

Well, I appreciate that and listen. I appreciate you coming on. explain to me why you consider me a stenographer for the Israeli government. Given that in the last week I think more than any other host in the world I have given lengthy platforms to Pro Palestinian voices to articulate that side of the argument I Do have to commend you.

Uh, you certainly have uh, had more Pro Palestinian voices than uh, the rest of the British media and certainly the rest of Western media in general. Now, as far as uh, saying that you're a stenographer I said that journalists are not supposed to be stenographers And yet when it comes down to it, in most circumstances, in whatever conflict uh, we may be in, there are stenographers for whichever uh, whichever party is aligning with the American State Department and the interests of the West in general and Israel happens to be the one uh in this in this ongoing conflict. it's interesting that you call me a propagandist because I want to play you. This was your reaction to when the hospital got I'm a propagandist no for the no no, I'm not calling you no no I'm just saying I'm going to play you I'm saying I am Okay, well then I want to I'm saying I am before you even play it Okay, I'm going to play the clip This is your reaction to the bombing of the hospital uh the other night while I was in the process of of getting ready for the stream uh Israel enacted uh, one of the singular worst strikes they have done thus far and an air strike.

an Israeli air strike hit the AL a hospital in Gaza City where thousands of civilians were seeking medical treatment and Shelter From the Relentless bombing campaign. Now interestingly when that when you were saying that uh I was coming on air to and I took a position uh, based probably on 30 years of being a journalist running major newspapers working at CNN and others, uh, of waiting of just saying I Think we should just wait and see what has actually happened here. Get clarification, see who's actually to blame before we start passing judgment, you raced in to assume as many people did. By the way, including the New York Times BBC mainstream media uh, and of course most of the Arab world uh, Then followed that this was clearly uh, indisputably an Israeli air strike or Miss hospital And yet all the evidence now suggests very strongly that it wasn't that in fact, this was a rocket that misfire coming from a terrorist inside Gaza So my question for you is this: why would why would you would go? Why would you be so certain in in what you said before you knew ch ch how how do people not hold um, big companies accountable for literally spreading like POS Possibly they extremely like, um, like damaging misinformation I Don't get it like this.

like kind of massive no if it is misinformation I'm just saying I don't even know about the story to be honest. So first and foremost, before we get started on this conversation, let's understand something very important here: There's no electricity in Gaza Internet is patchy in Gaza There's no food in Gaza There's no water in Gaza This is all by Design This is because Gaza is under a brutal blockade. a brutal occupation by the Israeli government. Okay, so that that plays a role in the fog of war and misinformation that gets spread.

Having said that, however, uh, you uh, you made it seem as though there is a certainty that this was uh, 100% not an Israeli airri instead. literally just okay. Chat guys, hold up, Hold up guys guys. I don't even know anything about this topic yet.

But as a general rule, as a general like statement, right or question, I'm not I'm not gonna get weird about this. wouldn't his arguments go against his stance entirely. Saying there's a big fog of war and it can't get the info out right? Then that would mean that the people that that can spread information would spread misinformation on their own behalf. Does that mean that Does that mean that the people that are creating the blockade don't that? people that do have the internet or do have the are just.

does that make sense? He Che understands it, understands it so it doesn't make any sense. Is that crazy? Yeah, if they have no way to spread information right then why would the information being getting out be against the ones that control it In that in that scenario, just said I Literally just said it's not okay sorry. The evidence is increasingly pointing to this not being an Israeli air strike and that is expert evidence from people who have no skin in the game at all. Yes uh well I don't know which expert you're talking about because I think Channel 4 did a pretty good job As a matter of fact, I would say Channel 4 did the best job so far in analyzing everything that the IDF has said.

but the reason why I believed and I still do believe that the likelihood is that this was an Israeli bombing campaign wasn't only because of the singular verifiable video the the phone video from the balcony that uh had all of the markings of an air strike, the fact that the Israeli Air Force was enacting a bombing campaign in the region at the time according to the AL Jazer live streaming footage that everyone is using but doesn't understand uh, the fact that uh, the the Uh digital media person uh for the IDF uh immediately came out and and said that this was actually a an air strike that hit a Hamas Target and that he was sad that there were you know uh casualties at the end of the day. but this this was a Hamas Target and celebrated it and more importantly I guess the fact that this hospital had been bombed by Israel this hospital had been bombed by Israel on Saturday 22 hospitals have as a matter of fact been bombed I heard about this I was on Twitter that day and after and I was looking at some called like um confirm the geography or something like that and they have like videos and and like mathematical linings on maps and whatnot right? and I looked at it and it was pretty convincing. um I thought it was pretty well done to be honest I I hope it's not fake and I didn't get I didn't get prop propanda I thought was a pretty there was there was some pretty significant amount of evidence they took like a bunch of videos right of what angle it was taken from, from what place and it tooken what where the the thing was projected to have landed and it they a bunch of lines that determined uh, where it came from most possibly at a pretty good um degree of of of error like a small one and it it looked pretty convincing and I was like unless it was completely fake I don't know by Israel Since this last uh Saga in the occupation and this hospital had been bombed directly by Israel where the cancer wart was destroyed, Israel has been bombing all of these hospitals Israel has been calling all of these hospitals to evacuate over and over and over again. The medical professionals at the hospital had been called by the Israeli government uh the day prior and everyone on the ground assumes that this is an Israeli air strike.

They are the ones who experienced you have if you watch the BBC if you watch the BBC account of all this last night by their verify unit which was specifically set up by the BBC to be completely dispassionate in these investigations and they reached a pretty clear conclusion based on circumstantial evidence. I'll make that clear that this would not have been an Israeli air strike, including for example the size of the crater which Bears no relation to the size of craters normally. Yes, by so look, my point is, neither of us know for sure, but you took to your Airwaves immediately because actually you're I wouldn't even say unconscious bias. Your admitted propagandist bias on your part was that you wanted that to be an Israeli air strike.

It suited your narrative and I would say that that in itself in its way, being a stenographer, well, you know you accuse me of being a stenographer. I Try and be fair and get to the truth in your case. I Don't think you try to do that I Think you appeal to your audience, appeal to your base, and you don't really care whether the facts are there or not. This is entirely unfair because you just said circumstantial evidence favors that this was not an Israeli air strike.

I gave you all of the circumstantial evidence that it does favor that this is an Israeli air strike. the reason why however, circumstantial evidence is not enough and the one thing that I will concede to because when more information did come out and no, I do not mean when Israel said that they did not bomb this hospital and it was actually Hamas and then they turned around and went never mind, it's not Hamas it's actually Islamic Jihad And then they said we have more evidence coming out in a couple hours and then the evidence came out and it turns out it sounded like uh. it. The the phone conversations that they were able to intercept supposedly sounded like uh by experts at the very why is there multiple groups have Rockets is what I think is a major concern.

How come not just the military, you have a multiple groups with a bunch of Rockets yo Why just a question mark question mark Guys this this is a very good question. How come your country and then you have the Army and and you have a bunch of other groups that I'm assuming are not like the official Army or whatever and have access to rockets and means to fire the Rockets That's concerning as how is not concerning That's incredibly concerning. What guys, What the very least Uh to be uh, completely false and and uh, completely made up ACC Sytax hesty. I Don't think even as you're saying I think you're a smart guy, let meish I think you've looked at all of this and I think in your heart you know this was probably not an Israeli air strike and I'm just curious why you would have you heard of the the Black Market Bro: nobody goes into the black market buys a rocket launcher that spams Rockets across the country Bro: this guy thinks he could just go buy a dudud massive 16 slot rocket launcher D start smoking up dude.

What? Like even like when I wake up in the morning, my voice is even like wait, like it's possible but then also I'm pretty sure I've heard him do the Deep R voice when he's on other shows so it might be intentional because didn't he do that on the um was it context? Was that the name of the show that he was on, where he built it on his own I don't remember the name of the show but I think he does try to do that. Oh complex I think Vos tries to do that too. so I don't I don't know if he was trying to do the same. Yeah, whateverand because I want to play you.

This was your reaction to when the hospital got I'm a propagandist. no no no no I'm not calling it I'm no no I'm just saying I'm going to pay you say I'm saying I am okay well then I'm saying I am link l He gets baited by AR Three Clipse Who? you play it? Okay, I'm gonna play the clip. This is your reaction to the bombing of the hospital. uh the other night while I was in the process of of getting ready for the stream uh Israel enacted uh one of the singular worst strikes they have done thus far and an air strike, an Israeli air strike hit the AL.

Hospital in GZA City Thousands of civilians were seeking medical treatment and shelter. Hold up, Hold up. Hold up. Three breaking news report was sponsored by Applebee's oh this one's insane I Don't know if this is legit or not.

Rip they lit that thing up. Look at the traces everyone much love EXC This one is literally Arma 3 It's fake. It's Arma Oh God damn it. I hate it by Applebees oh how the how does that even happen? Chat: How does that even happen from the Relentless bombing campaign? Now interestingly when that when you were saying that uh I was coming on air too and I took a POS oh yeah sorry position.

Uh, based probably on 30 years of being a journalistic running major newspapers, working at CNN and others, uh, of waiting of just saying I think we should just wait and see what is that lame at Destiny you and your chat are so uncharitable to son down to how he sounds or breathes. It's the same thing you say you hate about Vingt. Community Okay, kind of. but like here's something that I haven't figured out.

I I don't know how to throw the deal on this one yet. just just a real quick aside. Sometimes people are fake and performative and I think it's good to call it out, but it's hard to call it out without always coming across as unhinged or obsessed I feel like there's an issue right now. Media or I say media? maybe alternative Media or maybe in my world where there's a really good defense of everything and that's just saying wow Rent why I was laughing is because that was a video game clip you there was a clip from a video game oh my goodness dude.

OB to where a person can do like, horrible or say horrible or be performative as and then anytime somebody criticize them like oh wow, weird video game um Donald Trump did it with his fans oh Trump Derangement syndrome oh Trump derangement syndrome oh Trump Derang So I mean there is a point where it's like too much to call out. but I think it's worth calling out when you see it like you know what? I Just guys guys guys I was with this. See everybody is just so on edge. It's insane.

We cannot. We cannot have anything else but just boredom these days. just too caught up. So now we need to play the block game.

Every is so caught up these days it's kind of insane. you would instead of admitting as facts change your I'm saying that is not what I'm saying at all I don't understand why you would double and treble down be on your you're asking me to be on your show. Do you want to talk? Yes, If you're asking me to be on your show and I want to be on the show, Thank you so much for having me on your show. Let me explain exactly what I said and let me explain to you why I Think still to this very moment until there is a thirdparty investigation that is concluded by uh, the UN the International Criminal Court, or specifically a forensic analyst that uh, that looks at the situation is allowed to be on the ground.

This is not just my perspective. this is BET Selum as well, which is an Israeli organization that has also demanded a third party investigation occur. I am not going to I am not going to conclusively say that this was not I fault I expect you because I just gave you because I and not because I'm a propagandist. As far as me being a propagandist goes, everyone is a propagandist.

I'm just honest about it. You're a propagandist. We have our bias. You think I'm a propagandist Hon about my bias.

Who do you think I'm a propagandist for? Who do I think you're a propagandist for whichever your every every media person is is doing propaganda. This but who but who for be doing with somebody you think it's a bad word I don't That's just the difference. This's Atic. It's actually quite a serious charge.

H said I think it's a serious charge to level. not as a podcaster, but as a journalist who's broadcasting around the world who has reput I believe for being fair and impartial. Actually, on these issues, it's quite a charge to just say I'm a stenographer of the Israel government or I'm a propagandist I don't think there's any evidence on either of those things I'm curious who you think I'm doing this conversation. 3,000 peers while we're having this back and forth, 3,840 Palestinians have been ruthlessly slaughtered in the last incursion into Gaza I Feel like this is an incredibly selfish, self-centered conversation.

To have you asked me to be on here you wanted you wanted to hear my perspective I'm willing to give it to you I Don't want to talk about like whether the I don't want to talk about Gome Chomsky style manufacturing consent conversations about how the media is operating in the in the the beest of you The guy listen, you were the guy that there dead people listen son. I Only asked you because you're the guy that called me a propagandist and called me a baboon in the suit I Was curious as to why you don't want to say who I'm doing the propaganda for. We'll move on, we'll move I Agree with you I I there's a bigger. There's a bigger picture here.

Let's move on. Let's take a short break. Let's take a short break I Want to come back I Want to talk to you about what happened on October the 7th. Get your reaction to that? Welcome Back Hassan Perer is still with me asan I Want to just play you a clip of something that you said guys guys, they got to run the ads bro guys.

they have the mid roll ads they need to run. They got to cut them off to get get to that. Bro They're trying to make some cold cash in this man. Like come on man.

October 7th Terror attacks in particular particular the attack at the music festival which killed 260 people. Look at this guy. you know what shouldn't happen killing 260 people at a music festival? No, you're right man. that just happened on its own cuz like bad guys wanted to do bad things.

You're right. Dude, if they subjugated you to a open air prison your whole life, you're going to break out eventually when you realize that there's no other way to get out of it. I mean it sounds to me there Hassan that you you are in some way saying they had it coming. Were you? um no I wouldn't say that they had it coming I Think that uh Michael Brooks used to say uh analysis is not justification and while obviously civilian casualties and and horrific barbaric acts that were committed on October 7 are completely unacceptable.

Uh, the the important thing to make sure that it never happens again is to analyze what are the condition I conditions as to as to how it happened to begin with. and I think uhud Barak is going to be on uh in a little bit as well. or maybe he's on before me. Uh, and and I'm and I'm almost certain that while he has held the keys to the conversation and held the the levers of the power in this conversation in many key and critical points, uh, I I would go so far say that he is among many others who also recognize that the BB Netanyahu Administration is responsible.

This is not just my assessment. This is Uh, 85% of the Israeli population's assessment at the time. Uh, this is years and years and years of refusing to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority Take. don't take my word for it, take personal word for it.

In a closed door conversation with Lud members, he said that if you want to thwart any kind of Palestinian nation state, you must do everything you can to only negotiate with Hamas We control how high the how high the fire goes. He's given cash to Hamas by way ofq Uh, there is no bigger fan of Hamas than Biby Netanyahu which uh I hope one day you can maybe interview and then you'll ask him to no. I actually did interview him a few months ago and I I did actually spell out to him that there would been a lot more Palestinian deaths this year so far up to the point of the interview than Israelis and what he intended to do about it he said then he didn't believe in Collective responsibility which is now this hot phrase in this whole uh crisis about whether you would hold all people in Gaza respons for Hamas Interesting to see if when they let me just my point, if they do, there's a nerd Rober there a nerd Rober ground Invasion It' be interesting to see if they keep to that word. you know I'm not a I'm not I'm not a a defender of what B Netanyahu has been doing in Israel in the last year.

his attacked on The credibility and inte inte rity of the Supreme Court I think it's been a disgrace and I think it has fractured Society in Israel I Also think that it's caused so much social unrest and had such big protest. oh my God. Well I thought was TC You see the out of me that you could argue has taken the eye off the ball of the people who should have been defending the Border Uh, because they've been trying to sort out what's been going on domestically internally inside. Israel So I think it's a catastrophic failure of Intelligence of Security of Defense all of those things I'd be amazed frankly if Netanyahu survives this.

so I'm certainly not here to defend him, even if you do view me as a stenographer for his government. Uh my. My question for you I think is this is that I've had a lot of problems trying to get people on the pro Palestinian side to separate two things that you can say as I believe and you believe that the Palestinians have been maltreated for decades that the situation where they are effectively I mean I don't even call it an occupation because Israelis aren't in Gaza they pulled out in 2005 but they still control the ability of Gaza This is why I call you propaganda no I'm just saying the phraseology is confusing to me because the reality is Israel exercises control over people in Gaza It allows them in and out. It allows them to turn on the tap of water and so on and so on.

I get all that. they don't actually live there because they can't live side by side with each other. That's why it's called an open air prison, right? I Don't I'm not reting the video I'm just watching it. world Largest open H I don't disagree with you and I've I have poting this out for a long time as a journalist, so we don't.

We don't disagree about the appalling plight of Palestinian people. Um, but the issue comes that if you can't separate that ongoing dispute between Israel and Palestine from the absolutely appalling barbarism of October the 7th which was on a whole different scale to anything we've seen where 1,400 people Holocaust Survivors babies in their in their cribs you know, young women taken, uh, tortured, abused, shot, beheaded with it was reported and so on. If we can't look at that collectively with a with a a general humanity and agreement that that is an absolute atrocity, then there's something wrong with this. and I find that the tribalism on both sides is now so toxic and so frenzied that you get people who literally can't.

We've had a bunch of actors right signing this statement saying they want a cease firing Gaza and calling Israel war criminals and so on. But they don't say a word about the Hamas attacks that precipitated this and I find that really really hard to accept. but but you but do you agree with them? If if they had said for example that October 7 attacks were brutal and and massacres occurred and then they said everything else that Israel is committing war crimes, would you agree with with them? Well, okay, here's what I would honestly say about that is Israel not allowed to defend itself from the worst terror attack we've seen since 9/11 Is it not allowing to defend itself after 1400 people in Israel are butchered that way? And the question then if you assume that they are able to defend themselves as any free Democratic country, isf's line is the line that everyone. Let me ask you this.

It then becomes a question of how can they defend them elves If their mission now is to get rid of Hamas a terror organization that's committed one of the worst acts of Terror ever seen. If that is their stated aim, then what they are doing is consistent with that, isn't it? No. Here's why this is actually an abject failure. and this is not just my perspective on the matter.

I'm just a you know, dumb idiot with a twitch stream who who is live reacting to the news and trying to make sense of everything as it's ongoing. I usually have a policy of not covering breaking news and and uh, sometimes that policy is violated. but uh, Ultimately, I am not uh, held up by the same journalistic standards even though I think I do a much better job than most other news outlets in Uh in general. So let me just say this really quickly.

You said Israel has a right to defend itself. Absolutely Zero People think that this is a ridiculous statement. However, how Israel is defending itself is collective punishment now. Collective Punishment in the form of depriving 2.2 million people of electricity Collective Punishment in the form of depriving them of of water of food Collective punishment of Uh in the form of 51 people dying in the West Bank where you know there is no Hamas in the West Bank and yet 51 people have died because in the West Bank settlers that are occupying Palestinian territory in violation of the international law settlers who are doing an act of colonial terrorism and this is not my statement on it.

this is international law that are doing horrifying things by simply just existing there and and maintaining the presence with guys Guys guys I was tring I was talking about whenever he said about his his policy relax settle down when he said he doesn't cover breaking news I said cuz dude guys unfortunately what it does just it just does. It's just what it is like. it has a lot of breaking news in it. a lot of it with with an occupying force in the form of IDF who was Ual istically humiliating Palestinians uh uh in in a in a structure that Bellum an Israeli organization calls the permit regime where every waking moment of of Palestinians lives in, the West Bank are absolute hell where they have no legal recourse.

51 Palestinians have died and that was before the ramola uh the the Rola protest that happened last night and uh, the Israeli forces were uh, opening up with live fire on protesters last night. so who knows what that death toll has become. This is all this is all a product of. Israel Being an Apartheid state, this is a violent aparte State There is no way to be a peaceful.

It is a violence is violence required for its maintenance and that violence is frustrating people. That violence is radicalizing. People hold on as far as Israel as far as as far as what Benjamin Netanyahu has done, as far as the war government, what they have done Pierce going into Gaza and bombing Gaza and killing 3,480 Uh, Palestinians So far in Gaza 1,000 plus children out of all of those casualties, 22 hospitals being bombed, a bakery the only remaining intact Bakery Being bombed yesterday. Um, these are these are horrifying crimes that you would openly say are horrifying and unjustifiable when Russia does it.

But when Israel does it, it Israel has a right to defend itself. This is identical to the same talking points that I've heard from every Israeli Administration official. It's the same talking points that I've heard from American politicians championing the the exact same talking points. It's the same thing that I've heard from everyone else in the media.

You might have been against the Iraq uh war and and you use that, but you're using that for for evil in my opinion. at this point, if you are not sitting here and condemning those acts of war crimes, those acts of violence, that those acts of collective punishment, well I would say to that that I think the death of any child in this conflict is horrific. Absolutely horrific. But the question comes down to me that after an act of Terror as we saw on October the 7th Israel should be able to defend itself and should be able to go after the people that perpetrated that who live amongst civilians in in Gaza deliberately and the question for me becomes down to what is proportionate I don't know the answer as that I'll be honest with you I don't know what that answer is I do know the answer to that I do know the answer to that last night I had uh Dr ofer Kasif, uh an Israeli Knesset member who was expelled uh suspended for 45 days for saying what I believe is the Trth championing the exact same position of the Uh the Harat's editorial board.

um, there are a lot of thoughtful people, a lot of um, uh, formative Holocaust Scholars A lot of historians uh, that all agree on the same point the reason why violence that even penetrates through the Israeli security blanket that that people thought existed that penetrated through that Iron Dome the Iron Wall if you want to call it that is because of years and years of Oppression and years and years of violence which is a necessity guys. I got I got juice up straight up I'm like I'm just going to give it a second CH in five minutes I'm going to go and just juice up I can't bro I don't think any not a a stem is going to make me listen to this Because guys guys, it's not my expertise. my brain doesn't connect. I I'm not in taking a lot of information I'm not in taking a lot of information I'm not I want you I'm not.

It's just when a son talks. chat guys guys, this. this is nothing to do with the topic. This is to do with the when talks My brain turns off okay.

it's not fair. It's not fair that I watch that's very important and and and and a world news or whatever and my brain just doesn't want So listen. It has nothing to do with the topic. It's son talking guys.

It's not dude apartheid state and this has to stop. There's only two ways out of this either. you engage in full-blown ethnic cleansing. and if you, if you listen to the likes of Smotrich, or if you listen to the likes of Itamar Bangir and these very unfavorable, unpopular far-right figures, if you listen to Netanyahu and his lud government, uh, they say that they are interested in going in that direction, the ethnic cleansing Direction theth displacement direction or the only way out of this for a real solution is to to move towards peace, to genuinely have to genuinely end the blockade, to end the aparti chat.

Why is there not like a global police like somebody was like a bunch of like massive nukes and they're like yo guys, you guys don't stop around. We're just going to Nuke Everything people. We'll stop fighting or something I Don't know to end the occupation and create a pathway towards citizenship for all people with a right to return for uh, all 14 million Palestinians uh uh, 5 million of which live under Israeli occupation. It's brutal and then the rest.

Living in Di CH is a nice idea. 15 Hales good Ide Pepe laugh 15 halves Pepe Laugh 15 Hales Pepe Laugh 15 halves Pepe Laugh 15 Hales Pepe Laugh 15 Hales Pepe Laugh 15 Hales Pepe laugh desper These are not unreasonable requests. These are requests that understand the dignity and the humanity of one side and does not simply treat them as their their colonial subjects and and it's the only way to create permanent security and prosperity in the region. If it was as simple as that, I'm sure that would have happened already.

I would say this: I agree with a lot of what you've just said, not all of it, a lot of it. I Don't think you could ever achieve peace now with Hamas controlling Gaza I Don't think you can achieve peace with Netanyahu in charge of Israel actually after I don't think his own people will want him to be in charge of Israel down Bel line when they examine exactly how this happened but we will see uh but Hassan I got to leave it there. Look it's good to talk to you. You know you're an important, influential voice to a lot of people.

um. and I I think we have a lot of common ground and there are some things that we disagree about, but I suspect it's not as much as you think you know. I Do think that the core problem here has got to get resolved in a way that's been completely ignored for decades. and until it gets resolved until the pl of the Palestinian people is resolved, until all these young people in Palestine feel there's some sense of hope Sol they can get out of what effectively is as you say, a prison camp, then nothing is going to change I Don't think it justifies I got to finish it.

but I don't think it justifies in any way what happened on October the 7th. But I do agree with you that until that core problem gets resolved, there will never be peace. I Appreciate you joining me. Thank you very much thank you for having me.

I'm going to watch that be honest. join me as this: be honest guys guys. What is 152 me to disuss the conflict? The personality of a wet lettuce snooze Fest CH This guy keeps saying 15 to not me guy M.